Питер Бримелоу о демографии, «lawfare» и кризисе свободы слова

Peter Brimler, thank you so much for doing this. I thought of you last week when I read this. I don't know how much you follow X, but there were a couple exchanges that suggested to me that things were changing very, very fast. Okay, so here's one. This is a tweet from last week, less than a week ago, from basically an anonymous account, and I'm quoting. If white men become a minority, we will be slaughtered. Remember, if non-whites openly hate white men, while white men hold a collective majority, then they will be a thousand times more hostile and cruel when they're a majority over whites. White solidarity is the only way to survive. Okay, that's on the internet. Elon Musk retweets it and says, 100%. And then Elon Musk writes this. If current trends continue, whites will go from being a small minority of the world population today to virtually extinct. exclamation point. All of that, in my opinion, is obviously true. And I think most people know it. But I read that and I thought, here's the world's richest man who owns this platform and a lot of other things, saying this. And Peter Brimlow, who I know, who's a thoroughly decent person, has had his life turned upside down and basically been destroyed in some ways, professionally anyway, for saying things that are way more restrained for that than that. So I have to ask you what it feels like to see that. It feels kind of tingly, on the one hand. Tingly? I'm happy that the debate has moved in that direction and the things that we were talking about 25 years ago on VDare.com, which was my website, my birthright citizenship and so on, and now in the public debate. On the other hand, you know, we've been ruined and we're facing personal ruin, of course, because of this attack on us by the New York Attorney General, Letitia James. As nobody knows who I am, Tucker, I should say that, you know, I'm a long time, it's part of my accent. I've been here for 55 years and I'm a long time financial journalist. I work for Forbes and Fortune and the Barons and so on and I work for National Review. I wrote for National Review a lot and I wrote a piece on immigration in 1992 saying time to rethink immigration. That's sometimes credited with kicking off the modern debate. And there was a brief civil war within the conservative movement at that point, which we lost and Buckley stabbed us in the back and purged the magazine of immigration patriots and for the next while, you know, the Wolf Journal editorial page was absolutely dominant and they were going on about the need for amnesty and there was no way to combat it. So I set up a website which I called her name, VDare.com after Virginia Dare, the first English child, not white child, as they always say, born in the new world. And over a period of about 25 years, we built up into quite a force until about two years ago, it was destroyed by the New York Attorney General, Tisha James, who just basically subpoenaed us to death and has in fact now sued us personally and through the foundation. So we're a bit like General Flynn, you know, no middle class family can stand up to this. General Flynn had to sell his house and we're going to face, we're driven into personal bankruptcy, I guess. It's a horrifying story. I've kept abreast of it through your wife who texts me as a wonderful person and I know that you're a man of great personal decency and restraint and basically a great citizen and the kind of immigrant we need and I'm grateful to have. So the whole thing is shocking and so revealing but I'd like, if you don't mind, to start closer to the beginning of this story with your experience at National Review. 1992, you said you wrote this piece saying time to rethink immigration which I remember well.

At the time, National Review really was a forum for conservatives to think through what it meant to be conservative. So that was a significant piece at the time and then you said Bill Buckley, the then editor William F. Buckley Jr., stabbed you in the back. Can you tell a story? What happened exactly? Oh, sure. I was never on staff at National Review but I was what they called a senior editor and I roll for it a lot and in 992 I wrote this very long cover story it's about 14,000 words. Bill had retired as the editor then he was just circling around in the background but the then editor John O'Sullivan went with this story and for about five years we basically directly challenged the official conservative line which was that immigration is good more immigration is better illegal immigration is very good that's what the Wall Street Journal said and still saying as far as I can tell Yes. And then at the end of five years in 97 Bill just abruptly without any warning at all fired O'Sullivan and purged the magazine of immigration patriots and basically told us to shut up but it's told them all to shut up about immigration which of course they all eagerly did he put the Washington Bureau in charge of Rich Lowry and Panuru and so on and so for them for two or three years you know you couldn't get even the basic facts about immigration out to the public but then the internet came along and you know rescued us and I started VDARE.com May I ask you to pause and explain why that happened why do you think Bill Buckley who was retired and letting John O'Sullivan run it another Brit I think Yes indeed who now lives in Budapest why do you think that he stepped back in from retirement to shut down that conversation specifically? Well of course I've had 20 odd years to think about that and the answer is over the time my answer has evolved at the time I thought he was just jealous this is actually the thing you see I was a financial journalist for a long time it's a thing you see often in the corporate world entrepreneurs will come back and purge the fire the managers that they put in to replace themselves out of sheer jealousy I think the congressional republicans hated us talking about immigration because it upsets the donors and I think that was influential with Bill he liked being lionized by the then republican majority in the house and I think so the republican leadership didn't like it Newt Gingrich etc who was ascendant came in in 94 to much much fanfare achieved not a lot but they're the ones who pressured Bill Buckley you believe I think that was true but I also think that the the neocons in New York hated it hated the line and Bill was very very leery of offending the neoconservatives there's people like Norman Paul Horace and so on and I think they pressured him to I mean I know they pressured him to get rid of John now why would they care oh because at that point the neoconservatives who predominantly Jewish faction they had this sort of Ellis Island view of America they wanted to they're extremely frightened of the white majority in America becoming self conscious because they feel as Jews that it will leave them out in the cold despite the fact there's never been any real anti-Semitic movement in the United States there's no evidence that white people becoming aware of the fact that they're white is a threat to Jews I don't know where that comes from right and I actually think there's a sense of jealousy there you know they didn't like I mean if you look at ideas on the right in the recent years a lot of them originated out of neoconservatism but here was a non-neoconservative fact we would have then described ourselves as paleoconservatives coming up with a whole idea and a whole issue because the immigration was completely dormant from 1968 when the Hartzler Act kicked in until the early 90s but there was no discussion of it at all I actually went through National Review's archives and I found that they hadn't discussed immigration at all between the passage of the 65 Act until the early 90s people simply didn't realise what was going on why? I think there are a couple of reasons one is that there was a pause in immigration from 1924 to about 1968 so a whole generation grew up when there was essentially no immigration at all into the US and so it just wasn't an issue to them and you know what happens with it's like an academic life when they have an academic theory it's not that it conquered the other theories by being better and better arguments it's just that the people who hold the earlier theories die off and they were and that's true for politicians too a whole generation of politicians had never thought about this issue and I include Ronald Reagan in that it simply wasn't an issue when he was growing up and that's why he was haunt swagged by this the amnesty in 1986 he actually genuinely thought that the ruling of the government would exchange amnesty for serious enforcement whereas in fact he just took the amnesty and didn't enforce the law against illegal immigration at all Christmas feels like just yesterday but in fact it's already time to think about Lent Lent Lent is a great chance to step back examine our lives and decide whether or not we're headed somewhere worth going this Lent we strongly recommend the world's top number one prayer app it's called Hallow it's Lent prayer challenge starts February 18th it's called Pray 40 The Return Transformation does not start with improvement no transformation starts with repentance the courage to admit that you are lost and change direction Pray 40 forces you to confront that responsibility forgiveness and what it means to truly repent and live a life of meaning by following Jesus every day enjoy simple deliberate prayer no spectacle no performance just silence honesty and one small step toward renewal this is not about fixing your life overnight it's about beginning the journey home Pray 40 The Return starts Wednesday February 18th and runs right through Easter download Hallow for free at Hallow dot com slash Tucker but I'm a little bit fixated on William McBuckley because he was such a dominant force let me just back up what I think now is I think looking at National Review now it's obviously donor driven it's oh of course and we weren't aware of that in the 90s I wasn't even aware I didn't think about the donors role in politics really until some years later than that we thought that people just got up and argued and you just simply didn't realise how dominant how important the donors are I think now looking back and particularly given Bill was not as wealthy as he wanted people to think and he depended on National Review financially to a considerable extent it financed his lifestyle to a considerable extent and I think but he depended on the magazine yeah yeah I think the rest of us thought the magazine depended on him yeah that's what he wanted you to think but in fact it did finance his lifestyle to a considerable extent and the winters in Strahd and the sailing across the Bermuda race I don't know how much but there was certainly quite a lot that was deducted or expense to the magazine in any case he just didn't want to disrupt the donor fraud and the more I think about that the more I think that probably was the reason interesting so that's basically a species of fraud I don't mean against the tax code I mean it's intellectual fraud it's you're making the case that you believe these things because they are true when in fact you're taking money to say them I think Bill actually my experience for Bill is that he actually was not very interested in politics when he went to his dinners he used to put on 73 73rd street it was very hard to talk about politics he was always wandering off in odd directions and you can see that in the way he lived his life laterally writing these books and so on he just basically didn't do any serious thinking about politics initially he was very I have a letter from him actually saying how wonderful my immigration story was really yes and it was I forget I forget what he said it was beautifully organized and beautifully argued and the tone was perfect and that sort of stuff he never admitted that he changed his mind on immigration he just told them to stop covering it but the official line of the magazine was that immigration was questionable they just didn't do any journalism on it which is how he was about drug legalization he was officially in favor of drug legalization but he very rarely let the magazine write about him why I guess he was balancing a number of issues in the case of immigration I think he's done immigration was a very unfashionable subject I remember and I think as we were talking earlier I was watching Ben Shapiro on Megyn Kelly yes and he was attacking you for some reason I forget what and he was saying that then he suddenly says but Tucker's good on some things he's good in immigration well as I understand that you're interested in the idea of immigration moratorium and so on of course this news to me that's what Ben Shapiro thinks is good about immigration I mean just about five or six years ago in National Review he called me a white supremacist for basically for no other reason than advocating immigration reduction and those days back in the early days if you if you advocated immigration control you're immediately suspect you're immediately suspect of being anti-Semite even though there's no direct connection at all and now they've changed their mind on this they've fallen back I mean Norman before he died I was very friendly with Norman he didn't talk to me for the last 10 years of his life but he died just a few weeks ago at the age of 95 but just before he died he gave an interview in which he said he changed his mind in immigration he thought there was a limit to how much immigration could be absorbed and he credited John Oslo for helping change his mind he didn't mention me why didn't he speak to you for the last 10 years of his life well I just I think he just decided that I was a suspicious character and I deviated on the immigration issue and he suspected I had the habit of calling the national review the Goldberg review because at that stage briefly it was dominated by John Goldberg who I think is a complete fraud and lightweight and of course was absolutely boneheaded on the immigration issue he's certainly a lightweight it's hard to know what he believes or doesn't but he certainly I mean if John Goldberg is like your intellectual force then you've been degraded well Norman actually emailed me and said you've got to stop calling national review the Goldberg review because it sounds anti-semitic actually my understanding is that Goldberg is not technically Jewish his mother was a Gentile I knew her she was a great person actually I replied and said that he didn't get bad but he just gradually suspected more and more of thought crime Norman was an extremely passionate man so famously he didn't he didn't he didn't socialize with opponents I miss him I really liked him I was sorry no there was a lot about him that was appealing he was a man of great energy and I admired him in a lot of ways kind of repulsive in others but certainly he was not standing still he was constantly in motion and actually all his wife because she was the chair thing of the Philadelphia Society which is a conservative affinity group and she invited me to speak on immigration in I guess 2005 and that's where I met my first wife had just died and that's where I met my current wife Lydia who of course was running the VDARE Foundation with me she was the publisher of VDARE.com and you've had her on of course oh of course and I'm a fan she's a brave woman and a smart one may I ask what happened to your relationship with Bill Buckley I when he fired John O'Sullivan I was the only one of the entire staff who went in and asked why did you fire him because what the official line was John had resigned to write a book that was because John was very popular with the National Review base and the immigration issue was very popular and so he didn't want to admit that he was dumping them both so he got really ruffled because he wasn't used to being challenged and said he resigned to write the book and resigned to write the book and we basically never really spoke to each other after that I mean I was constructively dismissed from National Review I got a letter to tell me I was no longer a senior editor which was actually very important in the National Review world because it was run like a fraternity and if you were a senior you were automatically invited to all kinds of events and so on and to his dinners and all that kind of thing and I never wrote for it again Why did they dismiss you? I'm sure that the Washington Bureau was always upset with the immigration issue because it embarrassed them in Washington cocktail parties and he put the Washington Bureau in charge of the magazine so I'm sure they would be happy to do it and they didn't want to write about immigration and I think also you know mud sticks Tucker and this constant whispering campaign of how I was a racist and anti semi for raising these issues it sticks and it has stuck so that you know even though Ben Shapiro is now in his favor of just talking about immigration I don't see him apologizing to me No well of course not he doesn't care about you at all or other people at all I had I had a interesting experience recently Lydia and I were at an ISI book event and I bought Matthew Cotinetti's book I mean I actually bought it it's a rotten awful book about the conservative movement it says that I was born in Canada which obviously wasn't it's a silly he's a silly I mean it's all this is Bill Kristolson Bill Kristolson that's the point I took it up to him I like to collect inscribed books in fact I forgot to bring your book I'm sorry but and he wouldn't sign it he wouldn't inscribe it he said I have nothing to say to you and the really weird thing about this on what ground I mean I don't think you've ever said that I'm aware of an anti-Semitic thing in your life I don't think you're an anti-Semite well Karnett is a convert of course so he's probably very you know particularly ardent but the weird thing about this was that Karnett had actually written some quite sensible things on immigration which is odd when you think who his father-in-law is but he said to your face I won't inscribe your book because I have nothing to say to you essentially yes that's right he signed it but he wouldn't inscribe it and then he said nothing to say to you wow yeah I mean it's kind of surprising and we live out there in the eastern panhandle of West Virginia and we don't have to face this stuff but I guess when you're in D.C. you face it all the time yeah well I laughed but I also believe in forgiveness and that's kind of the difference I think I mean we're commanded to believe in forgiveness and to treat people as human beings and Norman didn't believe that no I'm very aware of that I'm very aware of that it was a principled position with him yeah it's a principle but it's a satanic principle that you can't forgive other people that is you're not forgiven if you don't so that's my view but wow what that's amazing so you were just cast out well the thing is he'd already signed the book so I couldn't give it he signed it behind the screen I couldn't give it back get my money back whereas conversely Yoram Hazoni was also there and you know Hazoni as you know banned us from his national conservative conference because he said he didn't think we were appropriate and so we had a series of bitter exchanges but Hazoni was perfectly friendly and he signed the book and inscribed it and we chatted about children and grandchildren and so on Yoram Hazoni is a very courtly man a very charming and warm person I'll say I had lunch with him once and I don't agree with him on a lot but I liked him it's hard not to like him I think he's very good a lot of the stuff he says about consumerism is exactly accurate I think that's right moving it away from being classical liberalism the problem of course is that he's caught in this bind because he doesn't want to admit that Israel is an ethnostate because he doesn't want the Americans to have ethnostate he wants them to be a civic nationalist state what do you mean Israel is by its own description an ethnostate yeah but he keeps arguing that that's not an attack by the way at all well you know I've never been able to get him to explain how you cannot say that there's a racial component to Israel when the whole when of course the Jewish religion is racially based I mean that's why they have the matrilineal principle where you've got to have a Jewish mother and I've never seen him respond to that and I don't think he can because he doesn't want to encourage straight up white nationalism in America for years you've been told this is not happening and you're a bigot for thinking it is but it is happening mass migration is reshaping the West completely it's not a conspiracy theory it's a fact different people live here now you're not a racist for noticing that you're just using your senses again it's not a theory it's the biggest fact of this or any generation in a thousand years the replacement is real European governments aren't just tolerating mass migration they're encouraging it they're funding it they hate their populations and they want new populations we've got a new documentary on this called Replacing Europe Following the World's Deadliest Migration Route our filmmakers follow what nobody wants you to see they spoke directly with migrants locals officials who admit what the public is never told it's not ideological it's reality this is happening it's destroying the West and our cameras caught it replacing Europe that's the doc only on TCN now I just want to be clear about my own views not that it matters but just because I hold them sincerely I have no problem with the fact that Israel is an ethnostate it's their country have whatever state you want as far as I'm concerned but it is an ethnostate by definition the people who founded it were not religious a lot of them were atheists and they identified as Jewish racially I have no problem with that at all that's their country but to say it's not an ethnostate is not only a lie but it's like a ludicrous lie and he won't admit that that's my reading of what he wants as only is saying but it's one of the situations where his civic nationalism is so intense that it might just as well be ethnic nationalism if for the US but a lot of things he says about immigration to the US are excellent right I agree and I'm not attacking Yoram Mazzoni at all whom I like but that's dishonest because Israel is an ethnostate and you should just tell the truth about especially about obvious things right well it's what I would call double think isn't it double think you've got to believe two contradictory things at once and it's necessary to operate in large parts of the political world interesting so but why wouldn't people who support an ethnostate in Israel want one here I mean why would they object to that so strongly I mean of course this is the profound question about the American Jewish role in the American immigration debate they're overwhelmingly pro-immigration however having said that you know typically if you know anything about Jewish intellectual life you know the people on the other side and some people very hard on the other side and I know a lot of them that's why I would never be anti-Semitic because I mean you can't generalize you know I mean I have a hunch that Stephen Miller who of course is an aid to Trump I think he's the deputy chief of staff or something he's going to be the first Jewish president I say this it's hard to possibly horrify people so much but he's like Disraeli in Britain Benjamin Disraeli of course was Jewish but converted to Episcopalianism he was converted by his father to very early age his father took the whole family over to being Episcopalians he basically invented the Conservative Party reinvented the Conservative Party in the 19th century came up with in Britain he came up with a complete grand strategy for it based on the empire and imperial patriotism and so on and that really carried the party through for the next 80 or 90 years a couple of generations because the party in Britain was a nationalist party because of being a nationalist party got a very substantial working class vote because it is the blue collar workers who are the patriots and the Conservative Party is able to tap into that Miller's done the same thing he's invented a grand strategy for the Republican Party which he desperately doesn't want to take up because it's run by cowards and fools but he thinks they should move towards you know re-stabilizing America's ethnic balance and basically eliminating this immigrant inflow which is causing all kinds of problems for lower skilled workers and ultimately changing the racial balance and he's not afraid to admit that and not only that but he has the cunning to survive the Kushner White House I mean that was really extraordinary because Jared Kushner of course bleeds exactly the opposite he's basically a liberal New York Jew but for some reason Miller was able to survive with him I couldn't have done that so and I wouldn't have abandoned Jeff Sessions in the way that he did with Sessions because it was his close aide and it was his mentor and then Miller abandons him when Trump turns against him I couldn't have done that either but then he's in the White House and I'm not yeah no I think those are all fair and true observations it's interesting though the degree to which the immigration project is a demographic project I mean it has almost explicitly been an effort to make America less white they'll say that it's not controversial I mean you could prove it on video didn't even bother to because I think most people watching this already know that it's architects starting with Teddy Kennedy in 1965 basically just said ultimately admitted this the whole point is to make America less white a non majority white country why is it so hard for conservatives to say the same if Democrats are saying we want America to be non white why can't conservatives say that that's what their motive is I have to say that Kennedy didn't say that when he was the floor manager of the heart seller he gave a very explicit assurance you love to quote saying this will not alter the racial balance of America and it will not mean a million people a year will be coming in whereas in fact a million people a year are coming in and that's one of the reasons I bitterly regret not having Vida even though I have my own peterbrimo dot com sub stack that's not the same kind of voice because we've got to get legal immigration into the debate here I think what Trump has done on illegal immigration is remarkable and more remarkable than people realize but we're not doing anything on legal immigration but I'm sorry that means I'm not answering your question what was your question well my question was the whole point of the project was not to feed a desperate need for low skilled labor that definitely no longer exists now with AI high and it wasn't to improve America it's completely destroyed America it destroyed the state of California well when I was writing the book I wrote on immigration alienation that flowed out of my cover story the 95 book which Harper Collins refused to reprint I quoted a man called Earl Raab who was a Jewish activist and so on and he explicitly said that Jews were in favor of mass non-white immigration because it makes the rise of I didn't use the term neo-nazi but that's what he meant party in America impossible in fact he does the exact opposite it makes it more likely but he did say that he quite calmly said that this is why most Jews favor well it's also made the rise of hard edged anti-Israel politics and I'm not pro-Israel especially but I don't hate Israel a lot of people who hate Israel are immigrants so look at the New York Marathi well exactly Mandami won because the immigrant vote exactly exactly the native born American New Yorkers and God knows look at who they are for God's sake but they voted against Mandami exactly so they've really screwed themselves up this hasn't worked I mean if your interest was to keep anti-semitism and really kind of crazy anti-Israel sentiment to a minimum and I agree with that I'm against anti-semitism I'm against like basing your life on hating Israel it seems kind of lunatic if that was your goal I mean you literally achieved the opposite result is that fair to say not for the first time that's fair so you think maybe that wasn't the goal I don't know I'm just guessing here maybe there was another goal that we don't understand but well I think a lot of it is deeply emotional and can't be analyzed intellectually it's just a whole series of reflexes or spiritual but you know one of the reasons we know that the New York Attorney General attack on us was basically instigated by the Anti-Defamation League because a journalist we know actually got the ADL to admit this that they had gone to Leticia James and told her to take Fider out and we say to ourselves why us Jews what have we ever done to you you know we have the Berkeley Springs Castle in West Virginia which we bought as a conference venue because we're not allowed to have conference anywhere else the donor was Jewish we have we had all kinds of Jewish donors all kinds of Jewish writers but that doesn't make any difference to the ideal apartment so what are you going to do when the power goes out not theoretically but actually in real life most Americans used to think total power failure only happened in unstable countries places without functioning governments places you only went to on vacation this is the US people would say that could never happen here okay well then it did remember Texas during the deep freeze the grid collapsed people were left without heat some froze to death in their own homes so the truth is obvious now the government can't guarantee you electricity and when things go wrong no one's coming to save you that's why last country supply offers the grid doctor it's a 3300 watt battery backup system built to keep your entire household running when everything else stops it powers full size appliances medical devices essential tools you can use it indoors it's totally safe there's no fuel there's no fumes there's no noise we have one at home and it's awesome it's got 15 output ports it charges from the wall when you have power from your car when you don't it's got a solar panel so the sun can charge it it's built to withstand EMPs lightning solar flares it is durable as hell so taking care of yourself and the people you love the people you're responsible for is your job get power you can trust always get the grid doctor today at our very own last country supply dot com our business this is the power supply that we use last country supply dot com now to what happened to you and to vdar so you're expelled both from national review and you leave your old life as a financial journalist behind i think it's a fair summary and then you create this organization called vdar named after virginia dare the first british child born in the americas and it becomes successful it becomes big and it's not anti-semitic it's not racist it's against changing america's population through immigration is that a fair summary yeah i stayed in financial journalism for a long time vdar was kind of a moonlighting project how'd you pull that off it was very difficult and of course it eventually became impossible and i was fired both from forbes and from CBS what used to be CBS market watch became Dow Jones market watch in both cases it was during turn downs in the markets but i happened to be the one you know they chose to fire me rather than people who were frankly less valuable to them so it did in the end terminate my career in the mainstream media but on the other hand you know we were developing videre very rapidly and it became quite a big deal and in 2019 we raised nearly 4 million dollars which enabled us to buy the castle and do all kinds of other things of course it's been utterly destroyed now i've been out of it it was suspended two years ago and i resigned so i'm supporting the family now on pensions and savings and so on and i do have a family i have minor children so it's kind of irritating irritating doesn't begin to describe it so tell the story if you would you're running videre and somehow leticia james who's the attorney general of new videre is a 5-1c-3 charity and it was registered in new york in 1999 entirely because i then pro bono lawyer happened to be barred in new york and therefore that it was convenient for him and this was when you know there was republican governor in new york and nobody ever heard of law affair nobody heard the idea of law affair this kind of exploitation of regulatory power never occurred to anybody at that point well because we registered in new york even though we don't operate in new york she was able to demand we one day woke up and found we got these massive subpoenas demanding all kinds of documents including all our email going back to 2016 and of course that was a huge problem because if she got that she would have the names of our donors and our anonymous pseudonymous writers and I had people writing for me whose career would have been ruined if they were fired may I ask them what okay so you're not domiciled in new york you're not operating in new york nothing we registered in new york that's the key point but the 501c3 is registered in new york that's right and you can't get out you've got to have her permission to get out and you know you can't change states no we can only with her permission and in some circumstances if we were to set up another 501c3 and start operating after that she would claim that we would transfer in assets and she would claim jurisdiction over that it's a huge mess and we had very expensive lawyers looking at it for a long time but even before she came along and hit us with this may I ask on what grounds she should subpoenas to you she doesn't have to give grounds but what she said was she wanted to investigate the castle purchase which we did in 2000 or more I should say Lydia did in 2000 because as you know we had maybe a dozen depends how you count but a dozen 15 conferences cancelled hotels would accept a booking then they cancelled as soon as they came under pressure from the left and we realised we were never going to be able to have a conference so we bought our own venue and she wanted to investigate that well of course all that purchase was very carefully lawed precisely because we knew she would want to investigate it but it doesn't make any difference she demands that and she demanded that and she demanded all kinds of other things the really killing thing for us was demanding all the email we had to turn over more than a million documents the really killing thing was demanding the email because we know if she got the writers names and the donors name she would release them she did that with Nikki Haley they leaked the donors to her pack and the papers that you saw that gave the names of Nikki Haley's donors were actually the letterhead was the New York Attorney General's office but of course nobody ever came after for her I'm just confused did she have evidence she committed a crime no she was looking for evidence and she's not found it but she's charged us anyway well she hasn't charged us it's not a criminal thing but she's suing us anyway over it my impression my guess my guess is that the Trump administration will begin to ignore the courts in some cases and people will say that this is the beginning of fascism and a takeover of the destruction of our legal system and you know that's a fair point no it's not a fair point it has been destroyed that's exactly what I'm about to say exactly it has already been destroyed and when the Attorney General of the state you don't live or operate in can destroy you because she doesn't like your opinions then we don't have a functioning legal system period and this happened before Trump so I just want to say that the wonderful I mean one of the wonderful things let me back up a second one wonderful thing that has happened within the last year is that a very enterprising journalist actually dug up a speech made to the ADL they had a conference called Taking Hate to Court by Rick Sawyer who is one of Letitia James operatives and he is the one who's leading the charge against us and he said to this conference that hate speech that's us hate speech is protected by the First Amendment but there are ways around that all you have to do if it's a charity and you have jurisdictions to start issuing subpoenas he said it sucks to be sued just subpoena them to death and of course that's exactly what he's done to us you know they inflicted over a million nearly a million and a half dollars in out of pocket costs for lawyers and so on let alone the hundreds of hours that lady had to spend digging through documents and so on which meant that she couldn't fundraise or do any of the work they just destroy you through the process of the punishment they just destroy you that way so he's actually openly admitting this so when we saw this we thought oh it's all over they've obviously admitted that what they're doing is not it's political it's not because of some regulatory concern but we've been totally unable to get the federal court to pay attention to this we're trying again now we have what they call a 983 action against Letitia James and the operatives personally and we're trying to raise this first amendment question there but the courts have been extremely resistant to looking at it I mean if the attorney general and her staff are admitting they're destroying you because they disagree with your opinions it seems to me that any federal court would take that up because that's a foundational question that's what we thought but in fact the first time we did it the courts simply dodged on a technical issue they came up with a technical excuse to dodging and we have it we're trying again now but you know we just have to hope for the best I think one of the things that is clear to me I mean from looking at our litigation experience which is now considerably goes far beyond this situation and other cases I'm aware of is that there seems to have been some message gone out from Judge Central that anything that's quote and quote and a white nationalist has got to be suppressed by any means necessary in our case the classic example is we had a hotel cancel on us in Colorado Springs and they well Cora was not with them because they paid up the liquidated damages like men and it was a lot of money but they canceled because the mayor of Colorado Springs who was a rhino John Southers had said he wouldn't extend police protection to the conference when when they you know in other words Antifa could go in and he wouldn't extend police protection yes that's right now this is an issue that's been he's threatening to kill you that's right and who is this his name was John Southers he was the mayor of he was the Republican John Southers the mayor of Colorado Springs basically threatened to allow mortal violence against you if you went to his city that's right now this is an issue which has been extensively litigated in the civil rights era and the point was made very clear that by the courts that the local authorities the local governments have to extend protection to people's First Amendment rights in other words in those days the black demonstrators would go into would have meetings in the city and the local the local whites would be angry about it but those whites had to be kept away the blacks had to be allowed to have their meetings well we litigated this right up to the Supreme Court which refused to take the issue up and there was the appeals court in Colorado rejected us and I believe it had at least one we had one good judge there who said this is obviously an attack on First Amendment rights but the other two who I think were Republican appointees to vote against us so we lost and we weren't able to our initial lawyer civil rights litigation is extremely damaging if you're on the wrong side of it there's enormous damages involved so it would we would have it would have been a huge victory and we would have actually been made whole in a very dramatic way and our initial lawyer in Colorado Springs was so keen on this it was so obvious open and shut case that he took it on contingency you know but as soon as he realized that the city was going to resist he ran away and we had to start paying lawyers to litigate him well anyway subsequently there was a case before the Supreme Court New York I guess it was called the Vullo case V-U-L-L-O and this was a case where the communists in New York were putting pressure on insurance companies not to insure the NRA and the NRA fought it and it won and in the decision Katenji Jackson says the NRA's case is strong but it's essentially I'm paraphrasing it's not as strong as V-DAR's case where they where they were denied police where the state agency you know would basically discriminate against them on political grounds what's this we never heard about this well it turns out that 16 attorneys general had signed an amicus brief saying that the appeals court in Colorado had been wrong to reject our attempt to sue Colorado Springs on a civil rights theory and that it was wrong for the following reasons and for that reason the Supreme Court should take up the NRA's case against NRA v. Vullo I guess it was called and the Supreme Court did take it up and ruled against the state of New York 9-0 which of course does us absolutely no good whatever because we're out all that money and you know our first memorizes are not protected I mean in other words there's a real determination on the part the NRA is apparently more partable than we are I'm a little bit confused conceptually with the idea that white self-awareness is effectively illegal in the United States whereas ethnic self-awareness in every other group is encouraged doesn't make any sense speak for myself I'd rather live in a deracialized world people think about it less because it does cause problems but as long as you're encouraging identity politics why do whites not get to have it what is the answer well it's completely hypocritical it's because the people running the society are anti-white and they've been able to persuade or intimidate the entire legal system to operate in anti-white way anti-white in this case really means anti-American I mean because the whites are Americans that's who Americans are the people who signed the Declaration of Independence yeah I did know that and the purpose of the project like big picture again I keep going back to this but I'm just I am a little bit confused because this is the defining fact of our lives is that whites around the world are being eliminated and I would like to know why do you have any guesses as I say I think Tucker I think it derives from emotion rather than a kind of rational calculation I mean if you look at what's happened in South Africa or for that matter in every big American black city that's majority black I mean they can't want it to get into a situation where the water is putrid and nothing works and all that kind of thing but they do the purpose of a system is what it does and the purpose of non-white government is to produce non-white government and non-white results unless of course you're Chinese because Singapore is run Japanese they run very efficiently they are it's just interesting that people move here because it's a white country and we see Toronto it into the ground well all of us benefit white and non-white benefit alike from systems created by whites because they're more humane they're more just they're more fair and they're much more efficient and cleaner obviously you know I was looking at an interview if I can interrupt you I was looking at an interview somebody sent me an interview I did for Forbes magazine with Milton Friedman and I asked him are there cultural prerequisites for capitalism and he said yes and as you know he's a very fire-breathing libertarian but he actually thought about this question and he said that you know he said capitalism has really only ever worked in English speaking countries he said I don't know why this is so but the fact has to be admitted there's some kind of a cultural underpinning for capitalism what I sometimes what economists call a metamarket a framework where the market operates so the question is why are these capitalists bring you know why is the chamber of commerce suing to keep the H1B flow coming when they know when it's obviously going to produce people who don't do it like mandami who don't support capitalism and in fact hate it what are the capitalists doing well they're doing what Lenin said they will sell us the rope with which we hang them and I mean that's demonstrable it was true in 1917 it's true in 2026 do you think it's the product of short-term thinking oh in the case in the case of business people of course it did the malign influence the Wall Street Journal editorial page a whole generation of business people actually believe all this nonsense it's very hard to get out of their heads because they're never allowed criticism of immigration on the editorial page so you've referred repeatedly to the Wall Street Journal and also Harper Collins both of them are owned by the Murdoch family what's been your experience with the Murdochs well you know I I spent well over a year working for Rupert in I think that's 1990 on a ghosting autobiography which was never published for various reasons he changed his mind about it but I have to say he was extraordinarily generous to me personally and he continued to be extraordinarily generous until very recently when I guess I had been on the payroll quietly for a very long time and they dropped me when you came under attack because somebody looked into people on the payroll and they found that this thought criminal was on the payroll so at that point I was dropped but he's always been extraordinarily generous to me that is my experience with Rupert Murdoch that's not the case with a lot of these characters it's not Robert Maxwell and so on I remember Rupert tell me once that he thought that Maxwell Maxwell as you know fell off his yacht off the Canary Islands and was found dead Rupert's theory was this guy is such a jerk that the crew probably couldn't stand him anymore that is one theory that is one theory his lawyer told me that he was murdered by the Israelis for whom he worked I don't know the truth of it but he certainly had a lot of enemies and a lot of suspects in that crime but I mean he was personal and that's not the case with Rupert he's not cruel he's not vindictive Rupert is one of the most personally gracious people I've ever met in my life I mean he has perfect manners he's truly Anglo in that way and I never had a bad time with him always agree even when he fired me I talked to him after he couldn't have been nicer so I strongly agree with your assessment but he kept you on the payroll for decades yeah so I had five children born on his health care I had some born on his health care too God bless you Rupert Murdoch it was very good I mean I don't know the truth should be told good and bad so essentially I was a consultant and he didn't consult me at all because of course I would have told him to do the exact type of what he was actually but I have no complaints about Rupert Murdoch yes no I I just want to say out loud I agree with you 100% through much experience 25 years so but it does it does raise the question as it does with Bill Buckley then you know Rupert has great personal decency that I and I've seen it but his the editorial product is aggressively opposed to American basic American interests so like what is that this guy likes America he treats people around him well there's a lot good to say about Rupert but the Wall Street Journal the New York Post Harper Collins like all of them are engaged in a very aggressive campaign against America's interests so why why is that do you know well I think he handed over the sort of intellectual the thinking part of News Corporation or 21st Century Fox whatever it's called now to the neoconservatives and so he took on a lot of neoconservative baggage at that point I mean they used to run an editorial every year saying there ought to be a constitutional amendment there shall be open borders you know I mean it was really lunatic and I believe that's still the case but why would he do that first of all because they're very good they're extremely active full of ideas full of energy they were extremely good in the Cold War they were that's correct you know but that was then this is now and they have just simply haven't made the transition but that's a major reason I know he's operating in New York and you know he was under a lot of suspicion there and has been you know he had to show what he was what Gore Vidal called once an okay guy and he's showing that it's genuine though with Rupert I remember once talking to him about why he was so pro the initial Iraq war the Gulf War and he said well you know it goes back to my father and Gallipoli you know his father played a major role in discrediting in the Gallipoli expedition which was this attack orchestrated by Winston Churchill they're trying to break through the Dardanelles to get to Russia to help Russia join the war he said so I'm just I guess I'm just basically anti-Arab and I said those aren't Arabs the Turks well exactly exactly they're all the same yeah the Ottoman empire's gone and they've done an enormous amount of business in the Gulf with Arabs who helped finance his companies so it's kind of a strange answer his father was a famous journalist in Australia who broke the news of the disaster at Gallipoli and he was very proud of that but that's not much of an answer is it well you know him better than I do Tucker I don't know I just it's you know he said such an effect on the world and on my life and as I said five times I've always liked him and still do but it does it's a mystery one of his henchmen in Australia said to me that Rupert is a businessman who wants to be a journalist and his father is a journalist who wants to be a businessman because he did found a published empire in Australia Sir Keith Murdoch I think there's a lot in that I mean I think that you and I are ideologues professional ideologues but Rupert's not a professional ideologues he's somebody who spends all of his time looking at numbers he's a fantastic memory for numbers he knows all I can never remember any phone numbers he remembers every phone number he's ever dialed you know and running an operation like his it requires a tremendous attention to detail and a tremendous application to going over pages and pages and pages of figures and I don't know that he spends a great deal of time thinking about politics except in a sporting sense he likes to be backing winners and winning elections and that kind of thing but then he likes going to Australian football matches too so I think it's kind of a similar thing that is a very smart analysis I think you're exactly I think you just answered the question he's outsourced a lot of the thinking to others it's transactional he's not tightly wedded to ideological details at all but he's really allowed the Wall Street Journal editorial page to become a force of destruction well I have to admit it's many years since I've bothered to read the Wall Street Journal I rely on people sending me things and they don't send much from the Wall Street Journal or for that matter from National Review very rare is National Review still in existence apparently so it has the Republican establishment to support it's like Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz do you know the editor of National Review you mean Rich Lowry he's gone for some time now hasn't he hasn't been done if somebody else I haven't the faintest idea but did you know him I sat in rooms with him and I went to Bocchus Pots with him absolutely no memory of him at all he never said anything at all of significance and I think that's why Bill had him because he was completely malleable yeah I think that sounds right sad how much has been lost so speaking of lost what happened in the end and I interrupted your story my apologies but to VDR VDR is suspended in July of 2024 because he just ran out of money the foundation is still in existence and Lydia is still she's not paid but she's still paying lawyers and dealing with the legal situation which continues to ramify as I say we're being sued personally and as a foundation and what grounds are you being sued oh there's a whole bunch of things fundamentally technical issues to do with whether we had the right number of directors vote on the right number of things it's all paperwork stuff it's all stuff that would normally resolve with a phone call and possibly refiling and stuff like that they've not found any evidence of misappropriation of funds and in fact we move to dismiss on this basis although they huff and puff a lot I mean there's 60 odd pages of rhetoric but the actual charges they haven't got anything who is suing you this is New York State so they're using tax dollars still oh yes that's right enormous they've spent a great deal of money on this they also very weirdly subpoenaed Facebook for all our records of all our dealings with Facebook well Facebook banned us in 2020 as part of Zuckerberg's campaign to defeat Donald Trump they thought we were pro-Trump so we actually hadn't had any deal with Facebook for more than two years when they came out after us but nevertheless they got all these records off of Facebook but they've done nothing with them because of course there's nothing there I think they genuinely thought that they would find that we were accepting money from the Russians to run bat farms do you remember that was the allegation with interference in 2016 that the Russians were financing tiny little Facebook pages and that's how they were manipulating the election I think they genuinely believed that I think one of the things about Democrats is that they really do believe their own propaganda you know they do think that the middle America is full of people wearing pointed hats we'll be at war with Qatar by the end just because they've talked themselves into believing Qatar secretly controls America as they did with Russia then we went to war with Russia and we're still at war with Russia over there right so the difficulty with this is that the Republicans believe the Democrat propaganda too which is why they won't for example appeal to the white vote one of the things we did we discussed and documented what we call the Saylor's strategy as opposed to the Rove strategy in 2000 Karl Rove was saying that the Republicans have got to do outreach to minorities and it makes no sense statistically because I think George Bush George W. Bush got like 51% of the white vote it's appalling performance so Steve Saylor who's one of our writers who we've had on pointed out that if they could just increase that proportion of the white vote to what his father got which was like 57-58% that would swamp and overwhelm any possible conceivable gain among minority voters so we were saying you should go for the white vote and now this caused a great deal of trouble for us I remember I got a letter from an email from Jude Wineski do you remember Jude Wineski he said Peter you've gone too far in other words appealing to the white vote is not allowed and look it's just a question arithmetic you know there's more of them than there are of minorities in any case to this day the Republicans have still not done that they've done it why was Jude Wineski mad Jude was a liberal way back when he was a liberal Democrat and he still had a lot of these reflexes but it was just thought to be people just got very emotional about it you know they think it's somehow illegitimate and they still do think it's illegitimate for example so we see in Virginia in this last election you know you know this young young young who's a complete cipher as far as Wall Street cipher as far as I can see chooses has his success in the gubernatorial race a candidate who's one an immigrant two a woman and three black she's a black Jamaican immigrant and this is how he's going to appeal to the white vote they're going to get people in the halls of southwest Virginia out to vote for this black immigrant it's ridiculous and of course they got a terrible share of the white vote it was like 53% and that's why they lost but they was rather loose than make a full out appeal to white vote I think the tell was in the ability so this was you know I'm not saying a bad person but Winsome Sears was not a good candidate it was kind of an incapable candidate and hard to deal with so like they chose her because she was black that's right despite the fact that she wasn't good at her job I mean this is epidemic in the Republican Party it's epidemic in the country they've chosen so many Republicans in particular they've chosen so many black candidates they're about to do it here in Florida the next governmental candidate is like to black unless a miracle occurs why is that they're just pixelated by this transfixed by this I'm trying to find the right word hypnotized by this phenomenon by the whole race question they're just race whips is what it comes down to they're just so afraid of being called racist that they'd rather lose with a black candidate than run a candidate to appeals to whites Trump did appeal to whites not enough but he does it in some kind of really implicit way if you actually look at what Trump said in spite of all the rhetoric he's not said anything that's explicitly white nationalist or anything I see no sign that he's a civic nationalist but for some reason he's made some connection I mean all through West Virginia while Biden was president you would see these signs supporting Trump and saying very rude things about Biden and these are outside trail very rude things about Biden yeah I mean you know this is a poor area these run down trail homes that you see with these Trump signs on them for some reason Trump made a connection with them it's eerie now on the other hand he also made a disconnection with the other side so you get this Trump derangement syndrome but he was able to mobilize the white voters why do you think that was which part of it that he was able working class whites love Trump Trump is not a racist I've never seen any sign of that at all and not a white nationalist at all and hardly a Christian nationalist but he for some reason had an emotional connection with these voters why do you know there's a concept in in sociology called the implicit community you know communities that represent or appeal to some people without actually saying it explicitly the classic example with NASCAR for example why is NASCAR a white stronghold or everybody watching NASCAR is white and the NASCAR operatives don't like this they hate it they constantly trying to diversify Republican Parts is a classic example of this without ever doing anything to deserve it Republicans have become absolutely unbeatable in Virginia and you and I both remember that when Democrats were unbeatable in Virginia you know I forget when the last Republican I also keep forgetting when the last Republican Democrat to cry West Virginia was but it might have been Clinton and now it's just the Democrats have ceased to exist in West Virginia even though this is a very poor state Republicans prevailed simply by virtue of not being Democrats Bill Clinton lost California in 92 and won West Virginia that's how much has changed right so there's something that's going on at a very deep psychological level some kind of implicit signaling it's baffling now of course he did say you know when he came down the elevator and said just a few words about Mexico about Mexican immigration and never looked back so he obviously struck a nerve there so he did enough to strike a nerve simply by raising immigration in the sort of world rather you know I'm sure it drives Stephen Miller crazy incoherent and peculiar and if his council forgets his lines and says the wrong thing way that Trump does talk about immigration but he did raise it and of course until then it was it's been driven out of Republican politics completely I know we wrote about it for 16 years you were fired over it right there's almost no sign that any Republican would pick it up but then when he did the dam broke and now the big difference that I've found Tucker is if you speak to grassroots Republicans as opposed to elected Republicans the consensus is overwhelming that immigration has got to be ended the consensus is overwhelming whereas when I got involved in this in the early 90s a lot of Republicans never heard of this question and they would assume for example that immigrants don't go on welfare to the same extent that native born do which is completely wrong it's completely reverse of the truth and it was back then it was obvious that they were going back into welfare in disproportionate numbers but people didn't know and the Wall Street Journal is not telling them well the Wall Street Journal still isn't telling them but they do know now and maybe we played a role in that well yeah and it's had such a complex and degrading effect on the native population it hasn't been it's not just a matter of competition in the job market or my tech job went to an Indian or something it's way more complicated than that and as immigrant communities became totally dependent on federal benefits it changed the incentive structure for native born communities and a lot of them started going on it at higher rates also so it created a vortex that's hurt everybody I think especially the whites where does it go from here the big thing that has to the next if I was still running Videra and on my own website peterbrinmore.com now what I'm interested in is legal immigration legal immigration is still running at a million a year no that puts the fact that the foreign born population in the US has fallen by two and a half million in the last and just joined this year that's an extraordinary number I used to track the foreign born population because it's the way of tracking the impact of immigration it very rarely goes negative it went negative briefly when Trump first got in because they were frightened of him and a lot of illegals left and then towards the end before COVID it was falling because of various technical executive action measures that Trump had taken the administration had taken to tighten up on both legal immigration and illegal immigration now it's two and a half million gone four and two and a half million foreign born population even though we know a million legal immigrants have come in 90% of them colored by the way only about 10% white so what we really need is an immigration moratorium and I'm delighted to say there is a bill proposed by Chip Roy in the house called it's called the Paws Act calling for moratorium and there's several other very interesting bills there's a very good bill on birthright citizenship secure the border I mean in other words they should codify Trump's activities tighten up on the executive action tighten up on the southern border because we know that when the democrats get in they'll reverse it but they won't be able to do that if it's in the law they'll have to pass a law enough to admit what they're doing the problem is that the white house seems to be is not pushing any of these bills and unless they do I don't think that speaker johnson is going to raise anything it's just going to lie low and I don't know why the white house is pushing these bills of course it's got its hands full in Minnesota where they clearly need to declare the insurrection act and that kind of thing and they keep going around blowing up foreign governments and stuff like that and sinking ships and stuff which must be very entertaining but I would really rather than focus on ending this immigration disaster you know it's whatever it is 34 years now since I started writing about this in National Review I'm 78 I can't wait much longer I think you just get on with it and you have a number of children who will inherit the country that's really the point people occasionally people say I get attacked all the time for being an immigrant my position is an immigrant doing a dirty job that Americans won't do talk about immigration but the real reason is I have children here my youngest child is 10 years old and God knows what the country got to be like by the time she's a grown woman are you bitter I've been extremely blessed in my personal life even though my first wife died so I don't think I think things could have worked out differently for me professionally but in my personal life I'm very blessed you don't seem angry I mean because what my read on it is what happened to you is grotesque and is evil and not the kind of thing I thought would ever be allowed here so I'm shocked always shocked to hear your story I am I guess I am a bit at the conservative movement people in the conservative movement people I've known for 30 or 40 years who basically haven't helped us haven't defended us the most prominent people who have defended us are you and Laura Loomer your friend Laura Loomer so that just shows how ecumenical we are so Loomer helped you oh yeah she supported us on Twitter when we were good for her when we were trying to raise money to defend ourselves and she may be I have a give saying go which I just launched before Christmas frankly to help us personally because of course we're now facing tremendous legal costs personally and I believe she's helped us with that have you received any help from the Department of Justice we know that there are people in the Department of Justice who are not directly on the other hand Trump can't stand Letitia James quite rightly and they've made various attempts to bring her to book for various crimes for one thing I mean she's clearly guilty of massive mortgage fraud going back over 40 years but you know the obverse of law run by Democrats is joint notification by Democrats they've been unable to indict it because basically because judges keep disallowing the prosecutors and because the grand jurys won't indict Democrats so I don't know where that stands they also have an investigation into her deprivation of Trump's civil rights in these scandalous cases you know the Hush Money case and the fraud case and so on we should never have been allowed to go to court the judges should have started but of course the judges are on the other side and the judges just try to strike that down by disallowing the prosecutor I mean what's happening is these Democrats senators not only have the power to veto judicial appointments federal judicial appointments but they also have the power apparently to veto prosecutors federal prosecutors and they're apparently taking the position that they won't allow the appointment of a federal prosecutor if he's likely to prosecute Letitia James or any other Democrats and God knows there are enough Democrats out there that need prosecuting that's how they're protecting them in many respects we're looking to slow motion civil war here New York and Minnesota have essentially seceded from the union the whole legal systems are opposed to what the federal government is doing Jonathan Turley who is a first amendment specialist wrote recently that New York is the land that law forgot because normal legal norms simply don't apply there what happens is what the Democrat operatives want and of course this is not a government under law so in effect New York is seceding from the union and that's why I think ultimately we're going to have to go to the insurrection act and we're going to have to go to wholesale impeachment of judges all these judges brought in by Biden I think he had one or two white men both of whom were gay something like that all the others are women and people of color and so on and they delivered the most extraordinary rulings disregarding the plain letter of the law ultimately it's going to have to be purged of the judicial system Trump when that happens Trump will be attacked as destroying the third branch of government but it's it's it's been completely destroyed long before Trump right right my last question to you Peter Burlund thank you so much for doing this is are you hopeful I have a I have a one of the things I want to be remembered for is based on a talk I gave in about 2015 is that miracles happen quite often in politics yes I mean nobody nobody expected the Soviet Union collapse are you old enough to remember that I'm 56 yeah I remember it like it was yesterday 30 years ago I know 30 years ago I mean that's literally true nobody nobody either after all the right expected the Soviet collapse on the other hand you know I don't think they expected the Catholic Church going direction it went in Vatican 2 and on the third hand nobody expected Trump and he has been a miracle I mean he's changed the situation in so many ways not of which I think he has probably thought about but he does it anyway so I'm hopeful because I think miracles happen in politics frequently but we need one the situation right now we're heading in a very very bad direction and in the situation with where you know Democrat politicians are openly calling people to disobey federal law disobey law prevent ICE from deporting illegals that's more extreme than ever happened in the south joined deserogation much more it's more extreme than what the south did at Fort Sumter I mean this is insurrection actual insurrection that's right it's insurrection and of course Eisenhower and Kennedy did use the insurrection act to impose integration he sent the 101st airborne to a high school with the total applause from the mainstream media which was then of course completely oligopolistic I mean it was dominant at least now we have we have Twitter even if we are shadow band on Twitter are you still shadow band oh yeah well as far as we can see we are Anne Calder you know her her followership has not risen for like six years it's been 2.1 million for six years it doesn't go up it doesn't go down I mean it's obvious you can see from the engagement that there's something very strange going on it's all the Indians he has in there he hasn't been able to root them out yet thank you very much thank you so yeah you you you We'll see you next time.